Michael Munger on the Battle Between Liberalism and Populism

I'm a fan of Mike and learned of him on Econtalk as well. I think he holds the record for most appearances on that podcast. Great conversation!

"George Washington" was a turncoat, that's a FACT. Democracy is great, until it's result is popular....in which case it's "Populism". The US won't be 'Argentina' because it's politically British, not Spanish. The US's system is Britain's Parliament 2.0 + some French mistakes. George Washington 'sucked'..he was a British officer from a good family who murdered a French party in spite of orders, and tried to cover it up to worm his way out of a court martial; then betrayed his King and his Country. The USA is 'Independent' ONLY because of the French Army at YorkTown.. otherwise you'd be like Australians' and Canadians.. the "war of independence " was pointless.

As soon as he mentioned the Dialectic I lost all faith in his perspectives.

No country in the world has real Democracy. What they have is Parliamentary Democracy. What that means, is that you vote for someone to do something, but he can't do what you gave him the power to do, unless the other members of the parliament support it with their vote.

The only true form of Democracy is what is called "Direct Democracy". This includes 1 year rounds instead of 4. Seizing the property and all assets of the politician who committed fraud. And the casting of votes being performed only by those who deserve it. Mostly by proving their loyalty to the country.
If you wanna know more check how Democracy was in Athens.

But even that was heavily criticized by Socrates, because you'll still end up with people who don't deserve this power, or they're not suited for it. That's why they killed him for "corrupting the youth", and the people voted for it by the way.

There were issues with Democracy from the moment it was created

I think it is possible to get too much in the grass on definitions and overlook the simple fact that the single most important element is freedom of speech. That is what sets us apart from everyone else more than anything else. As long as we protect freedom of speech our incredible run of success as a nation will continue. What is happening right now in England is a great example of where we were headed not too long ago.

Wtf is this guy talking about😂😂

Have you ever been under the impression that police officers have ticket quotas?
Well it’s because public choice theory that makes sure gov agencies work like markets and officers do their job and are ranked according to performance and metrics. This libertarian nonsense is just like the left nonsense it just sits at the opposite side of the spectrum. Neither one deals with reality how it is but academic theory; populism is not just the result of left politics but also the market fundamentalism that is obviously a failure. You can pretend you operate in all the free markets you want but in reality you’ll always be the subject of as an example China and their currency devaluation and their macro policy.
I could give plenty of examples on how this public choice theory is a disaster but most won’t be universally applicable and recognized by people; instead this one in particular is. United healthcare, the privatization of healthcare because medical bureaucracy aka Medicare is corrupt, inefficient etc according to this guy it’s better to have privatized ones. No reason to try to make the arguments why it’s not for the patient, it is for the shareholder and its CEO.

Any suggestions for good books to read on the subject.

Maybe I’m too thick, but this guy really needs to work on his communication. He’s garbling up so much intellectualism, I’m really struggling to understand what he’s saying. I’m a pretty well versed libertarian and economist, with some elements of conservative national/patriotic populism, which I think is necessary to counter globalist authoritarian technocracy.🤷🏼 Yeah. I’m too thick.

Hmmm, the ones trying to reform the Constitution in Chile are the Socialists (literally) i.e. Gabriel Boric’s party and his allies. So the fact that he proudly boasted about being involved in that process sort of put me in “defensive mode”… will continue to watch, hopefully I’m being mislead by my bias.

Jimmy Dore does not support trump—I listen regularly and I’ve never heard that. The Biden admin was/is using lawfare to destroy its political opponents. The Biden administration forces mandates for a dangerous experimental injection, What kind of government does this? We watched a rigged primary by the DNC — slap any political label you like.

The right is not as bad as the left , but both parties should always listen to each other and work together as best they can ...

Wilson was very bad yet did do a few helpfull things ...

Mr. Munger is really thoughtful and interesting ...

Your guest is not in touch with reality. We are about restoring the republic. He's completely ignoring the communist infiltration of all our institutions.

it is a bizarre reading of politics and history to claim that Hitler has anything to do with conservatism. it’s also arrogant to claim you are one of seven people who are still liberals. there are tens of millions of Americans who are still liberals. it’s fashionable to describe Trump as primarily as a populist. this is mistaken. Trump has a lot in common with Reagan.

Oh good grief! Hitler is the right wing of the left. It's all the same thing no matter what you call it. It's all the belief that government can be used to "provide for the common felicity of all mankind." Everything you're talking about is all different versions of the same idea. It's ideology. An ideologue believes in a world without problems. Once you recognize that it is not possible to have a world without problems, that you can only make tradeoffs, you are a conservative. Ideologues pretend that there is no such thing as evil, that there are just bad systems. You're just blowing a bunch of nonsensical hot air everywhere.

With regard to GenZ looking for positivity, Trump won over the majority of young people by just standing up and yelling "Fight, fight, fight." After that point my two GenZ sons became positive about the election this year. It was a very marked change for my oldest son. He was enthusiastic about Trump when he was in high school when Trump won in 2016. By the time he got out of the army in 2022, he was jaded and wanted nothing to do with politics. After that assassination attempt, he became an enthusiastic about Trump again. He started sharing political memes with his brother and me again and I didn't have to nag him into voting like I did in 2020.

With regard to the elites, they will be broken. The civil service will find out that the president and Congress set policy, not them. The Supreme Court will back Trump when he starts firing those Nimrods. The colleges and universities will be forced to back student loans with their endowments which will bring an end to the idiotic degree programs. The administrative state will be dismantled and federalism resurrected. The Supreme Court has already started laying the groundwork as you mentioned, it started with the overturn of Chevron and Roe. I believe Schechter vs US will be affirmed and enforced in the near future and thus force the US Congress to take up the powers they abdicated to the executive branch and "independent agencies" decades ago.

Really enjoyed the podcast! In particular, I am grateful for learning the important difference between Patriotism & Nationalism!

This man is very bright, but I think he needs to actually speak with more "normal" young people. Every single grad I have ever met from Duke is woke as hell. That school produces out of touch elite kids. I don't worry about climate change and that is certainly not why none of my friends or cousins have kids (I am early 30s). I went to a program that is similar in ranking, but much more low-key.

I know the elites screwed up, they ruined America, why do I need elites to rule me? He failed to make that argument in depth. From my perspective, they have ruined life in this country. I am paying 50% taxes making a lowly six figure salary, I can't afford a home where I grew up, I try to save money by renting an average apartment and half my neighbors are on some kind of welfare...so I am paying 50% taxes to live around the people that all my work goes towards. Oh and to make things even better, most of them are probably leftists who hate me because I am a white male.
I lost two of the best years of my life to a fake pandemic, I am paying historically high amounts into social security that I will not receive. What is so great about America? Maybe I have gone off the based deep end, but I think America has turned into a woke joke, even Trump strikes me as a delusional boomer who is going to continue to destroy the currency with ridiculous spending.
I honestly feel like we have turned into Europe, where your destiny is either work in tech, receive a trust fund/gifts, or be a wage slave that pays our taxes and makes things work. Except we don't get beautiful architecture and nice weather...we have tons of ugly boring suburbs with no soul, old crapped out highways with WAY TOO many people on them (keep importing illegals boomer elites)...I could go on and on.

I think he's off the rails. Tiurning off. He's wrong about America.

In this country, the people who govern define democracy as the process by which institutions (not the people) make decisions and populism is the idea that the people should have a say in those decisions. So the elites see democracy as technocratic/autocratic (and think that's a good thing) and they are opposed to any form of self-governance (which they call populism).

Explanation of the seemingly confusing idea of liberty presented by Munger: an act has moral worth not when it is in accordance with duty but when it is undertaken out of duty. For example, suppose we have a general duty to support the deserving poor. He who involuntarily gives money to the state in the form of tax, a tax which is then used to support the poor, is acting in accordance to duty but his motivation is not the moral imperative but his desire to avoid punishment. His motivation is unrelated to the duty even when the effect is in some sense good (poor people are being helped). Under such circumstances, the act is not morally praiseworthy nor is it virtue enhancing. He, on the other hand, who gives to the poor freely and not because he is compelled to is the person that acts out of duty.

In general, then, a society that protects the liberty of persons instead of one which attempts to achieve some good by force, is conducive to the development of virtue

Weirdly enough, I get a lot of push back from my parents when I try to just talk about things we disagree on. They take it as me saying they are evil and wrong, I am just interested in both sides and why people think both ways.

LOVED this interview! Will listen to it again to digest more.

I don't know any 'Populist' saying one must ignore the Constitution and just seize power. The opposite is the case. All of the populists on the Right, want to save the Constitution. The people this guy is speaking with are actual fascists.

I’m 4 min into the video and I’ve liked it already

This was one of your best shows yet !
Congrats.

J6 was a fedsurrection, orchestrated by sitting members of Congress to illegally certify fraudulent electors behind closed doors. How many feds were in the crowds? 🤔

This was amazing. Thanks to you both.

Liberalism doesn't work outside of a Judeo-Christian moral framework because that's where the premises for the idea comes from. Rational thought only works under the auspices of morality otherwise anything can be rationalized.

Open immigration doesn't work without integration and assimilation. That's where the problem is we're not a melting pot anymore we're a salad and you can't do that because there's no actual ideal that is American then.

Here's where I would disagree with that guy. The problem is the institutions are owned by progressives and they will shut down speech because they don't care they want to destroy everything. This guy frames it from a rational perspective that we have to let this happen because if not what happens when they get in charge they'll do the same thing we're doing but that's already the dynamic. They don't care about saving anything they want it all to fall so how do you combat that.

These long-form episodes are great.

At around the 25 minute mark he says that young “populists” on the Right say that the Constitution is in the way and we (the Right) needs to hold onto power forever. I haven’t seen or heard that at all. Then again I’m not visiting college campuses either, but I haven’t seen that POV expressed anywhere else. If that is their sentiment then they’re wrong, but I have seen that at all.

When “liberalism” is illiberal, it becomes authoritarian.

I have never heard a conservative say 'we must not abide by the constitution'. I listen to multiple conservative podcasts a week and read conservative news and opinion daily. I have been a conservative for decades. No one says this.

Twenty three minutes in and I know this guy is a fraud. 'Both sides-ing' the issue for moral authority. Absolute b s.

Absolutely awesome conversation. Thank you both.