Depth vs Complexity - Why More Features Don't Make a Better Game - Extra Credits

A game doesn't have to be simple. Complexity is a matter of taste, it can help make it better, but it can make it too much for most people.

I think that in terms of depth:complexity ratio Paradox really did some things wrong. Their games are very interesting and deep and preset you with unprecedented control over your actions, but some of them just turn into number managing simulators at some point.
And some have needless complexity that doesnt add anything at all. The best example is the way fortresses affect movement of your units in EU4. I have watched a 20 minute video and i still cant really understand how it works apart from " if you attack from the sea you can freely move in all provinces adjacent to that see as long this see counts as one province itself". I am currently in the process of learning this game and its a total mess , but the fort restricting movement mechanic is so illogical and unintuitive that i think they really had to purposefully make it to be so. And it isnt even told anywhere in the game ! Even to see the zones of fort control you need a special mod. This mechanic does allow experienced players to abuse it to their advantage if they know what they are doing, but the cost for it is in my opinion too much.

Still DF is the ultimate ....game?

Its about 10ish hours of learning with dwarf fortress after that its mostly muscle memorie

Why do we never see the purple game again :(

Why do you believe engagement should be the main goal of game design?

Basically:
Pokemon card game - good depth, virtually no complexity
Yu-Gi-Oh - greater depth, very high complexity


Like, I swear, there are 5 different ways to put your card down in Yu-Gi-Oh.

I'd like to make something like Game Dev Tycoon but with these concepts built in such as adding tutorials into the game not because it arbitrarily increases the number of stars but because it lowers complexity which went high because you were trying to eek out a high depth score...

Something I’ve noticed with current generation games (ps4, Xbox one for those reading in future) is that UI’s have gotten way more cluttered and complex. The optimist in me would like to believe that this comes with an increase in game literacy. However with the amount of controversy about monetisation in games I’m not so sure.

Huge popularity of WoW Classic may make this video obsolete though.

Thats soooo deep man

One point i dont agree on is that lower complexity isnt always better, it is more common to be too complex but if something is overly simple it can be hard to focus on because you have spare attention

This is just like Sanderson's 3rd law of Magic!

came for the game recommendations walked away with a philosophy lecture xD

This might be different in videogames, but I craft pen-and-paper RPGs for my hobby. And I find making it my goal to maximize elegance a great design philosophy. It tends to create engaging games.

Interesting, I came here by searching some articles relating concepts of depth and balance

Something I've noticed is that complexity can vary from one player to another.
For example, look at Minecraft: one player could only focus on the basic aspects of the game, creating a very simple experience. On the other hand, another player could focus on the game's inner workings and mechanics, making their experience orders of magnitude more complex.
The thing about Minecraft, though, is that its depth/complexity ratio is fairly consistent, meaning that the more a player knows about the game itself, the more they can do with that knowledge, which is how we get people building full computers or working smartphones in Minecraft.

Looking at you, Assassin's Creed.

Depth is the butterfly effect, and complexity is the number of butterflies.

This comparison is literally a minecraft vs terraria, while terraria have a wide variety of tools and weapons (though you have also need to make choices), while minecraft there are less stuff but there are more stuff to do. Ex: redstone while every item have 1 or 2 thing it can do (not complex) but with each other it can make more complex thing while other game need 5 kind of logic gate, minecraft only need to use its basic components

I'd like to mention here that what you're calling depth is complexity, and what you're calling complexity is complication.

Doom had that level of complexity where choosing what weapon to use was important. Why did you use it as an example of one that didn't and then use future fps as exempted of ones that did? It also had enemy variation in doom 2 that go on to explain.

I'm constantly coming back to and pointing people toward this video. There are so many people, even those who have played and reviewed many games, who fail to understand this concept. So thank you very much for making this!

You used stalling tactic of locking weapons be hind behind a level barrier as an example of a way to add depth right before talking about not putting barriers between they player and experiencing depth. That seems a bit counter intuitive and why I like Quakes way it handles weapons better.

I opened up dwarf fortress and couldn’t figure out how to do literally anything no matter what I pressed. So I closed it and never looked back.

Oh! That's why minecraft is so fun, while other "open world" games arent

He sounds constantly at 1.5x playback speed

there was no depth in that first choice, no problem, ever, has not been solvable with the proper application of a rocket launcher

DABBBTHHH

Extra Credit: more features don’t make a game better

Kingdom Hearts: are you challenging me

THERE ARE TOO MANY KITTIES AND DOGGIES IN THE VIDEO

DIVEKICK

the video title is a plain lie, if you compare Dawn of Man with Rimworld.

Dark Souls basically has a heavy attack, a light attack and a roll button and manages to captivate your attention for dozens of hours.

Other RPGs sometimes make me so preoccupied with keeping in mind quests, skills, stats, dialogue etc. that after a while I just lose track and get burned out.

I should be the main target of Paradox Games. I love history. I love strategy. I've been playing Civ and Total War for over a decade. I just don't have hours to spend in a single sitting trying to learn a game. The few times I do have that much time, I won't have that much time again for months, so i'll just forget what I learned. I wish Paradox would figure out how to teach their own games.

I enjoyed this presentation thank you ☺

Laughs in Dwarf Fortress

So tic tac toe is the best

great video, helped me a lot with my college work

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Is this dude seriously trying to say games like Call of Duty are deeper than Doom because they have progression systems? lol

Tarkov devs should watch this lol

Check out the oversimplified artwork.
So original :P

SOOOOO GOOOOOOOD

DOOM Eternal is a curious example because it is highly complex (in that there are maaany tools for the player to learn and master) but their combined depth is insane. The differences in gameplay between a novice, intermediate, and master player are night and day.

Reducing unnecessary depth does leave players with more brainspace to enjoy the depth

Seems like a lot of post-kickstarter era boardgame designers need to watch this