Quoting Jobs & Price Conditioning

The chap on the right in the darker blue shirt makes excellent points when he talks about time (needing to fiddle about in your van, spend time pondering, etc etc) but when he says 'I know bad carpenters who make a lot of money because they're good at business', he should qualify that by saying '...and that's wrong!' or '....and that's a pity'!

All makes good sense but...... I have been trying to get a decent groundworks person to do some drainage, services channels, and soakaways (x2). There's some muck clearance (around 50 tonnes) involved too. Now, I don't mind people seeing a profit - it's what you work your arse off for - and Robin is right about covering weather days, but I am sick of contractors trying to flog me day rate instead of giving me a price plus or minus 10 percent. Jobs that should take 2 days get spun out to 4. Jobs that only require 2 people end up with 3. As a customer you start to feel that you are just providing fuel for the gravy train and should be grateful for the privilege. I like Robin's technique of giving a rough idea at the start. And, if you, as a contractor know your stuff, you should be able to back it up with a few points ie we need a grab wagon to shift the muck that's 200 a load and I am guessing around 5 to 7 loads, we'll need to hire an excavator for 4 days at around 120 per day plus drop off and pick up, and I'll need 3 labourers on the job plus the materials. It's probably going to take me around half a day to get the levels sorted and the site marked out etc. etc. Also, I might have to split the job over a couple of weeks if you need it sooner rather than later. I'm seeing around three to three and half thousand, but I'll run through and confirm if you are interested. That kind of thing gives me confidence. If it's more than I was expecting or can afford, I can say so straight away. Admittedly, you might have put in time to come out for nothing, but it isn't going to take up time producing a quote that gets rejected, and if only 1 in 4 jobs come off it's probably 1 of the 3. So, the moral of this lot is; I agree that you should look after yourself and earn a profit, but don't take the ** and do, occasionally, think about if from the customer's perspective too. By the way, brilliant work on the skillbuilder series. I have learned a huge amount. Cheers Roger.

"It's a race to the bottom " you said it brother! In 1987 I was working with a crabber (blue crabs/crab pots) 17 years old and making $100 a day. Working six days a week. $600 US dollars in 87 is the same as $2167 in US dollars today. That's considerably more than I make now. I've been climbing down the ladder of success for at least 20 years. Its depressing to think about really.
I do enjoy my work, trim carpenter, I get to do some interesting things. But I wouldn't mind a little more money!

As someone that has employed tradesmen from time to time ,I realise how important it it to know your contractor and to trust them, but also to realise they must make a profit , none of us want to work for nothing after all . The cheapest isn't necessarily the best . As a client you need to know and be clear about what your contractor will be doing right from the start . Changing your mind about something mid job will just add to your cost / cause your contractor problems , well done for explaining things to us numptys

This explanation of picking jobs has made it clear to me why I struggle to get jobs done. Yesterday i got the 14th knockback for quotes in a row within 2 months. I’ve had a roof leak whoch I’ve soent £3 trying to fix, but 2 roofers in a row have failed to repair the leak as agreed. Water is flooding into the cavity and damping the wall on the ground floor. I am autistic and live independently, but tbh, dealing with the trade has been ruining my life for 7 years of trying to get the house away from dilapidated.

Excellent approach there. Good advice for any supplier, not just those in the building trade.

I often find Tradesmen are reluctant to supply a written, detailed quote and to show evidence of their qualifications. I don't mind paying for a professional and competitively priced job, so why is it when I ask the relevant questions, I simply don't hear or see them again!

Very insightful, candid helpful advice thanks guys 🍻

I enjoyed listening to the trials and tribulations of the tradesmen. Personally, and as a customer, I find where they fail is when it comes to job specifics. Please don't just throw out a price without sharing with your customer how the job is going to be done first. Secondly, supply a detailed quote for quantities of the materials you are going to use for the project + cost of labour. As your interviewee stated: "sell your vision" to the customer. Give them an appreciation of what the job entails. Maybe then, you won't have too much trouble getting the job? Nobody wants to hire someone who is vague on details and only knows how much he wants to be paid for the job. Both sides need to put themselves in the other's shoes and have an honest dialogue. The devil is in the detail.

Regarding race to the bottom and competing on price, I find when quoting for a job, try and add value to what the client wants.
Perfect example for me, out of four sparks that came to quote on a replacement consumer unit and re-wire, they all quoted the same price nearly to the penny.
The one I gave the job to, off his own back, suggested that he could chase out the wall for the TV wiring to go (the room wasn't decorated). This was something I hadn't considered, but made absolute sense. So for the sake of ten minutes with a cutter and £4 of conduit, he got the work.
Retail loves to upsell, trades should do it too.

Both approaches work. Both speaking from experience.

Hi both, I love the videos they've helped me to no end. About paying weekly, most of the time I fit bathrooms which only take 2 to 3 weeks, would you still advise to be paid every week?

Thanks again guys, legends

Hi Chaps, just wanted to thank you for that advice. So informative and useful. I am on the cusp of taking the plunge and starting up on my own! the tip on getting paid weekly is one that i will be taking for sure.

Ok then-- so here in the US, I'd never do what Laddy boy does on the site survey in the first sit-- unless you are sure it's a "Last Look" after the client has received other GC's estimates, otherwise, you're the guy getting shopped-- wasting your time giving a good faith formal estimate, so the next crew can come in under you by 750 "quid". Fk that, "mate".

Old boy has it right, unless you're getting the last bid or only bid with the good doctor or lawyer. Then charm, good looks and the fast close may work. If you come back with the papers-- the formal bid, and they turn their backs, you'll have wasted a lot of time and effort for nothing. You might earn respect from the customer either way, after they get screwed with change orders... but by then, it's a wash, kissin your sister then, innit.

Ask a lot of questions. Make sure you are getting a fair invitation to bid and have a chance--- get the other guys numbers (unless it's a formal blind bidding situation, with all the BS about avoiding the appearance of corruption (see, "change orders")).

If you are having a "race to the bottom", get a specialty-- high margin, unique trade that is preferably CODE driven with or without licensing (best case for young bloods to learn capitalism before 6 years of Electrics, plumbing). HVAC, Insulation, Firestopping, Curtain wall,-- HAZMATS--- WELDING, Mold, Asbestos, Lead abatements (wear the masks every time mates), paving, seal coating, concrete pumping.

If you are in a trade that is flooded with new arrivers--- build and train a crew of unskilled guys and only take jobs finishing what has been botched and cocked sideways by the guy who gave the lowest price and ran away when his profit evaporated and the client refused the change orders. Find a,bonding company that would hire you to finish a mess.

As a self employed preservation technician, there's some great nuggets presented in your conversation that helps me push harder and keep on top of the business side of the job. Would love to hear about some recommendations for book keeping/accounts for us 'sole traders'...keep up the good work fellas

Great video. You're a great team. Lots of great advice here! I've got a multi trade background but have worked in sales, marketing and business. Funnily enough I've gone full circle and am going back to trade work but with a business perspective... Just like you're discussing. Now I have a lifetime of experience to make it work.

Yeah good advice , but they don’t teach you pricing at college ? Why can’t there be a guide for carpenters rates ? Had 40 years pricing , not one person ever said ever that’s too cheap ? They never gave me a penny more . Normally it’s less ? .

There needs to be a system ? It’s far too cut throat out there ? Who is checking this cowboy industry ? Which is out of control . These rich people in houses think we are scum ? We need to stay in our country not county ? Wasted my 5 year indentured apprenticeship ? Anyone can claim to be a carpenter ? Or builder ?

I think the KEY takeaway here is don't appear to keen. I can run my bathroom business in my head. I can price a job over the phone, in most situations but you have to 1. Appear busy 2. Ask key questions on the job 3. Take your time getting the quote to them. This makes you appear very busy and in their mind makes you attractive because you are clearly competent and have a log order book. This job is 90% mental gymnastics and 10% work.

I work in procurement in the public sector on construction and FM tenders (very much the dark side!). I am grateful to Roger/SB for the really useful insights into the mindset of trades craftsmen and also the opportunity to witness the application of their expertise craftsmen - invaluable stuff and very entertaining too. Thanks

Be confident.... in your abilities and pricing. If someone says "too dear" or "how much" move on to the next person who will value you. Either grow a pair or quit being self-employed and go work for a company.

My all time favourite.... "cash for no VAT". My answer, it's the same price however you pay, I'm not VAT registered, and have you tried asking that in the supermarket? It's usually said by the same muppets that moan about tax dodgers

Such good advice. So nice people. Thank you!

what's wrong with working for wages?

Ive just got my foot in the door as a self employed carpet fitter and so far im earning great money and I don’t drive. I tend to add my travel fairs in with my prices, along with a 5-10% profit margin.

Great advice.

Pure Gold, Thanks Rodger and Robin. Carpenter in Ireland!

FYI I had 2 builders quote on a refurbishment of a 2 bed terrace house. The first quote came in at £62k. Just that figure, no breakdown of costs just £62k. The next builder came in and said to me that sounds quite high. After a few days the second builder called me to say he was concerned as he couldn’t get the quote lower than £75k. He then provided me with a full breakdown of the costs in the quote. I ended up going with the more expensive quote because he kept me informed and sent me the comprehensive quote.

Thanks lads I know how to do the work but not the business trying to learn

I cant believe this is 4yrs old now.

More of these podcasts episodes please.
This is really good content with differing views on important questions for those new and experienced in the industry...

I think everything in this video needs to be taken purely as pub talk. In real life all tradesman are in for the quick buck. I can give you a few examples from my experience both as a client or as a tradesman.

I didn't hear how to treat the client fairly.. Adding more to their bill for your lost raining days sounds bad to me. A fair days work for a fair days pay.....???

What an eye opening session. Thank you.

this is gold! how is this free?

Great advice, many thanks.

I really liked the bit where you were talking about getting paid weekly. It makes a lot of sense. Why would I bankroll your clients building work? Thank you guys

What about the costs and maintenance of the extensive tool collection!

15k for a bathroom, I don't know many people who could afford that

i watched a person state as a sole trader carpenter you need to charge £36 an hour to earn a couple of grand more than working at McDonald he broke down everything you need to pay for before you can earn money. van, van insurance mot tax fuel then tools tool insurance including for you van phone computer advertising accountant visiting jobs doing estimate contacting suppliers contacting other trades problem is ive forgot half of what he stated think 80% work each week due to weather and jobs openings at the right time what he did not include was Pensions which would add another 10 to 15%.

This guy is going from a sole trader point of view to a medium builder with staff point of view , very mixed information here,, no real quote structure there, he has bounced over a lot of topics very quick… I’ve gone from 40k a year to over a million in 5 years… get me on the pod cast I would love to talk about break down and how to quote from sole trader to vat registered

You talked about the key points of costing a job

Just as vital is the presentation of the quote/proposal

The proposal should be a selling tool

I really want to know how to form a 1:1 or 2:1 gang and approach subbies on site and whats the process from there? You quote them? Or they just put you on a plot and pay you what you complete via a time sheet? Or how and to whom do you submit a tender to a principle contractor if you wanted to form your own sub contractor gang?

Personally I follow the relationship advice of Robin - this is key. If I get a bad feeling about a client - that's it I don't quote. I also follow up really quickly when I've been to the job, generally with 2 days - my hit rate is around 50% but I went to 2x jobs on a Friday morning - quoted Friday afternoon and won both. It is tough thought. I'm pretty good on Excel ( like Robin ) but I use a lookup table and have a detailed cost sheet with as many prices as I can for toilets, Basin, baths, showers, doors, timber etc. So I just uses a shortcode and it pulls the material description and the price - all I do is then add the qty and it totaliser it all up - easy peasy !
Robins dead right - 100% materials up front - invoice every week - keep your cash flow good.

When I quote a (descent size) job and work out progress payments, I make sure that the final payment does not exceed my profit margin. That way, if you don't get receive that payment, you still don't really lose.

i always go by the hour, that way its fair. I have always had issues with confidence and found myself labouring . its only this yeart things have started to click. when i hear about gardeners charging 30 quid an hour bcoz ''of the weather, rainy days, considering a good skilled joiner can charge 33 an hour, i just wanna slap the gardener. i believe you shouldnt put the extra cost on the customer bcoz of the weather. the gardener should accept his career choice negatives in the beginning and say to himself, yer know what, theres going to be rainy days so i need to think of other ways to make money.

it all boils down to the person you are at heart. the nicest ones have bigger hearts and are willing to work for less as they see the jobs outcome in ways that the businesshead type of worker doesnt see. intentions are the foundation of any persons work.

This guys really good. He knows his value and defines his own worth.

Good information guys just starting up my own business as a plasterer so I’m looking to acquire as much knowledge to help me grow… subscribed.

Amazing video, very eye opening. I’ve spent years working carpentry for small and medium size outfits in New Zealand and was spoiled really, nice work with good crews. Now I’m in the Uk working for myself and it’s a real slog. I do hourly rate mostly through word of mouth but it’s hard to make enough to justify the tools, van, etc. Pricing seems daunting due to the complexity of work , old buildings in Cumbria often with many cans of worms. Being in my early 40’s and having a young family taking risks with pricing jobs is a bit daunting, especially since most of my work was in Ireland and New Zealand. Some great tips in there though guys. I must say working in the Uk buildings things can be pretty hairy when it comes to scaffolding and access. I’ve struggled to get my head around it, surely the customer needs to accept paying for good scaffolding and some builders are just very negligent.
I wish I could work for Robin for a while and learn the ropes on the business side of things, wrong part of the country though

Great advice, thanks for making that video, always wondered how difficult it can be to manage jobs and make a profit!