Bentonite and Sparkalloid in Cider - Flavor Change? (should affect mead and wine too)

I’d really appreciate the white paper test whenever you evaluate a finished wine and discuss the color. 🍷 Great test, btw.

I’ve done some half-assed testing on clarifying as well and I really only use any clarifying additives ‘when I feel like it’. I’ve had mixed results. But the best results I’ve had is when I don’t use them. I had a very ‘muddy’ blackberry wine last year and I was able to use pectic enzyme in one gallon, and nothing in the other. The one with the enzyme cleared up in about 2 weeks. The one with nothing came to the same clarity in 4 weeks.

The biggest difference really shows when the house is warm vs when it’s cold. Warmer means a better/faster fermentation but clarity isn’t very good. Colder weather, like it is now, makes for a much slower fermentation but clarity rocks. The colder fermentation tends to also be more crisp but takes a lot longer to age. I have 2 bottles left from last years blackberry brew. The one brewed in cooler temperatures took just over 6 weeks to finish primary and I let it bulk age for about 3 months before I bottled it. In the bottle there’s zero sediment. The other bottle is as done about 3 months earlier than and in warmer inside and outside conditions. It fermented quickly, 16 days, bulk aged for about a month, then bottled. There’s a tulle bit of sediment in the bottle but clarity is about a 6.

In my experience, climate has a lot to do with clarity.

It's pretty disappointing, but not TOO surprising to hear that adding extra chemicals to a brew alters the flavor.
Thanks for doing it, so WE don't have to! ❤❤

I usually add pectin to any fruited ciders,wines or meads. If the brew still comes out cloudy I add the bentonite and typically get a good result. Going to try the sparkleoid and see how that preforms. Thank you for testing this out. Good Info

Video idea can you tell the difference between medium toast American oak and medium toast French oak? I have tried my own tests and results are kinda. Most people can tell oak vs un oaked.

Albeit I do see the appeal of a clear brew (I currently have a bottle of tea wine (puerh) aging on the shelf that is almost too pretty to drink). I'll happily drink a cloudy tasty brew over a bland clear one.

Thank you for making this video! My brother and I tried this experiment, and ever since then, the wine we've been making finally tastes like the actual fruit after we stopped using bentonite. To clear the wine faster, I find that cold crashing works well. If that doesn’t work, I use bentonite as a last resort. Lately, my brews have been clearing in just over a month by themselves, probably because the weather is getting colder. Personally, I add pectic enzyme to all my brews because of the natural pectin in many, if not most, fruits. However, sometimes pectic enzyme alone isn’t enough. There are usually negatively and positively charged particles you have to manage, which is where cold crashing, waiting, or using clearing agents can help. But I find these days waiting works well enough. If it does not clear in around 3 or 4 months however then I will force it with something. But most of the time my brews dont last 2 months after being made lol

A Clearing agent I have seen used but haven't used yet is crumbled egg shells.
The egg shells are baked in an oven to sterilise.
Then crumbled and added to the cloudy wine.
If I remember correctly it works by taking gases in the wine out of suspension.
The CO2 gathers around the shell, which then floats to the surface and releases the CO2.
And once the gas is out of the wine the particles in the wine settle to the bottom.
I think it probably wouldn't clear all sources of cloudiness, but it would speed up the normal clearing of the wine.

Doing a blind test is not really about being honest or not. its more about avoiding your unconscious biases. For example, you personally use sparkolloid. Your brain could play tricks on you in favor of the product you prefer. Placebo effect is real. Keep doing what you're doing!

How would gelatin have compared?

Does anyone know if agar agar could be used as a vegan alternative to gelatin as a clarifying agent?

definitely want to see you try this on a fruit mead. something like a blueberry, raspberry or strawberry. Very interesting video as ive been a big fan of sparkalloid myself.

Interesting test. Kind of wonder if I should just be ok with cloudy brew! Can you do this for mead? Also, test kieselsol/chitosan?

What was with the pugs butt in sunglasses?

Interesting results. I've gotten into the habit of using bentonite in primary of most of my brews. Could you do a comparison of bentonite in primary vs in secondary?

Pectic haze maybe? 🤷

I find that apples tend to have two issues when it comes to clearing, first being their large amount of pectin. Causing a pectic haze which doesn't like to clear without enzymes to break that down first.
The second being those pesky charged particles floating around, saccharides, proteins, amino acids, long chain fatty acids, things like that.
I personally seem to have better luck clearing most fruits with sparkolloid over bentonite, leading me to believe it's more of a negatively charged particle problem than positive ones 🔬
I personally almost always prefer using Sparkolloid over Bentonite for most all fruits. Although beer can be a different story... I generally prefer bentonite on beer and find it to help remove any unwanted minerality from the positive ions being removed though bonding to the bentonite before it sinks 🧪
Cold crash would probably be the best for keeping in the most amount of the full flavor profile though. I think no matter what clearing agent is used some of the flavors get pulled apart a little bit. Dulled or weakened slightly when some of those flavor compounds are pulled down with the sediment and left behind in the lees. Particularly aminos and fatty acids, though the saccharides can attribute to some mouthfeel as well as flavor sometimes too.

Also, just a note. I generally have much better luck then I stir/swirl the clearing agents after putting them in since I find they tend to just sink immediately if just left alone, not having much of a chance to bond to anything while falling. And actually you can even see it separate into layers almost immediately on your video since you used glass containers. Which leads me to believe it would probably be at least slightly more effective when it's thoroughly suspended prior to letting it fall out of suspension, hopefully brining some of the unwanted haze with it 👨‍🔬😄

Oh and btw Brian, I have that same issue with the texture of bentonite... actually both are like nails on a chalk board to me. Same consistency as literal chalk 🤢🤣

--🧿RuneShine, Michigan's Norse-Druid Alchemist 🧪🥼🔬

I wonder if you need to fully swirl clearing agents into the solution so that the particles can bind to the proteins and other unwanted free-floating particles and therefore get a clearer product? That is if you prefer clarity over flavor. 🤔

In a cider, I don't recommend to clear it. The apple bits need to stay to really help the flavor, but it also needs to be drank somewhat timely if you are freaked out about floaters. I do think the floaty bits also trap some yeast, so be aware if sweetening. Later on, you will have some sludge at the bottom of the bottles. Nothing wrong with it, you just lose some of the original flavor and may want to rack it off again. And it's sludge not the usual cake.

Glad you’re home and safe

Huh. The way I have seen bentonite used before was adding a slurry to a completely finished brew (see the Tech Ingredients on apple cider).

Personally, I do prefer to clear with bentonite if I clear at all, but I only ever clear drinks with strong ABVs and strong sweet, sour, or tannin notes which won't mind being dialed back a bit. One of my tricks I call "backsouring" is to clear a drink with a flavor I think is a bit of a miss and then add powdered acid or tannins like I am backsweetening. I refuse to believe this trick is original, but I haven't seen it discussed before.

The term "young" gets said often. Can you describe what you mean by tasting young?

I wonder, if you put pectic enzyme in the ‘control’ bottle could you re-taste them and update the results?

I have never cared about clarity, I care more about flavor. Never used any clearing agent ever.

That was super interesting! I will probably be less inclined to use bentonite going forward.

Something I'd like to see you guys make, would be a blood orange mead. While I know you have done orange and mandarin brews, blood orange has quite a different flavor than typical oranges

I believe that is the right clearing agent for the right situation. Since this was an apple cider, I’m sure pectin was the biggest reason for the cloudiness. I have used pectin enzyme and sparkaloide in junction. It worked great.

Once again, perfect timing! I was just starting to consider trying out clearing agents for some of the "junk wines" (misc leftover fruits) I've been making lately, but this reinforces my thought process of the less you mess with it, the better it will be. 😃
Edit: Also have a frost grape wine in secondary/clearing now that so far is amazing tasting. If you're ever back in the NE near the start of fall and know of a place to pick wild frost grapes, it may well be worth the effort.

Butt

I am so okay with an apple cider or wine being hazy. It just seems right to me. I've never even considered clarifying an apple brew. I just don't care that much :)

Enjoyed your latest episode. I haven't watch for a while (life gets in the way). When did you start using clearing agents?

Great video! I might have considered pastuerizing to make some of the suspended particulate fall out of the solution, but that would definitely can the flavor.

You might want to consider that part of the flavor of a cider is what is suspended in the solution and clarifiers can strip out the flavors of these particles by removing them from the brew.

Have you ever done a test around which fermentation stage you add fruit in. Add in primary, add in secondary, add in both. I tried and thought one you get more of the skin taste and one more of the juicyness taste but wondering if it's just in my head.

Very interesting information. I'm still just starting out and learning so much. Right now I've just been doing time and cild crashing. And most recently, pasturation. Did that with my cider and it is crystal clear. Definitely interested in learning more about peptic enzyme though.

Thank you guys so much for all the hard work you guys put in.

Have you tried making mead from powdered honey / freeze dried honey?

I use Pectic Enzyme alot so it would be educational to see a video on how it compares to other agents. As far as suggestions go Rose Petal wine is my new favorite and would love to see a video on that. Specifically a Spring Romance variant or simply just a bunch of pink and red roses.

If so pleae note to NOT cut the heads off the roses. You can simply peel the petals off which will leave the inner layers to still blossom leaving the rose intact.

It also could be that its just pectic haze.

Just a quick question, if I had some yeast stick to the neck of my fermenter after the agreesive fermentation period of a cider. Is it better to leave it there now that’s the fermentation has gotten over that rapid growth period or would it be better to do a slight mix and try to get that back into the cider solution.

Hey you two you can also use gelatin to help clear your wine.😉

Did I just get flashed by a dog or a cooked chicken…?

Thumbs up🎉

Wanted to thank you two. I have been wanting to try making mead for years. I started watching y'all a few years ago and learning from you everything I could.

And soooooooo..........

I just started my first brews today. One dreamsicle, one spiced methelglin, one coconut, and the maple syrup one. If Amazon delivers my two fermenters intact I will also start and peach and basic mead as well. Hopefully at least one of them will come out drinkable :)

Sorry for any spelling mistakes.

On a off note. It was really cool that you did a honeysuckle mead a while back. I always thought it might be good. Seemed like Brian liked it a lot anyway. Have you ever made muscadime wine or wine mead mix? People either love or hate them but I think it would be awesome. There is a big muscadine vineyard in TN could maybe source the raw juice from.

Your auto siphon probably won’t fit in your new bottles… ask me how I know.🙄

Love your channel. Would love to see an alcohol and taste comparison between BREAD YEASTS. I'm willing to bet most homebrew snobs that poopoo bread yeast for low tolerance and off flavors are just parroting advice and never even tried it.

I find that using a double dose of pectic enzyme in the beginning is best for apple anything. The regular half teaspoon doesn't cut it.

I'd be interested in seeing some old recipes (like medieval or ancient), but I enjoy all of your content!

My favourite clearing agent is time just let it sit and clear out and I it doesn't I cold crash and if it still does t I just drink it

I wonder if the flavor stripping of Bentonite could be reversed with adding Apple Juice/Cider after clarifying the Cider? Clarify, Pasteurize, and then back sweeten. I will have to try that at some point since I like my Ciders slightly sweeter anyways.